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From: Singh Garewal Subject: Re:If two Germanys can Unite Why can't we

G'Day Ysaeed

It is a question I have often asked my fellow countrymen and my Pakistani mates. Alas I am yet to get a fully satisfying answer. There are a number of basic reasons for it (none of them BTW are very nice to hear but are true)

First, basically the large proportion of the population of the subcontinent is not reasonable and ration in its thinking. Too quick to jump the gun and start finger pointing others.

Two, whatever rational thinking that is there, is clouded by the strong relegious sentiments.

Three, how else would the subcontinent keep its politicians busy. See whilst the masses are fed a lot of horse crap about national danger and national pride and the enemy, it gives the politicians sufficient clear way to line their own pockets. (I say the politicians on the subcontinent are just as bad if not worst than the likes of Marcos, Suharto and some of the African despots, they treat the state tresuries/exchequers are if it is their own personal wealth.)

Just have a look at the achievements of the two nations over the past fifty years -

More people live below or on poverty line than in 1947

Per capita expenditure on education, health and public works has declinedas % of GDP as compared to 1947

Basic needs of life - water and sanitation services pathetically poor of almost non existent (one only has to look at the two capital cities)

Corruption rampant in every sphere of life ( followed more zealously than relegion)

Dependence on foreign aid has increased ten folds since 1947

Child labour, child marriages, Dowry, caste discrimination still strangle the society

The list goes on. this is what we are supposed to be proud of.

The very basic fabric of civilised society is missing there.

And my dear chap above all the people of subcontinent lack and I repeat lack the national pride the Germans have. We simply do not have it in our genes, we not only are devoid of national pride we totally lack compassion and and desire to better ourselves.

Hate to disappoint you but it is the truth

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Sir,

I read your article in the India-Pak digest and I have to disagree with most of your dreams regarding Pakistan about uniting.

I have lived abroad many years and have first hand experince with Pakistanis with whom I have many friends.

Unlike Germany's partition, India-Pakistan partition was voluntary. It is based on Jinnahs two nation theory that Hindus and Muslims cannot live together. The entire existence of Pakistan is based on this theory and it cannot be undone now.

Another thing is that Pakistanis are eager to identify themsleves as "Arabs" and want nothing to do with Indian identity. I have observed this many times. Now their history books also teach them of glorious "Pakistani civilisation" which had no relationship with India. How can such a country unite with India?

But Bangladesh is a diffrent country, it is tolerant and has no "inferiority complex" in being associated with India. With that country, it is possible to form a Federation (indeed they will come asking for it in the near future when the sea swallows their country).

All the rosy things you mention of low defence spending and closer cultural relatoinship are possible even by maintaining a friendly relatoinship with Pakistan, not necessarily uniting with it.

regards

Shankar

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Dear Yousuf,

I have read your ideas. I agree with you and salute you.

I too want unification of humanking deviod of religion and religious and other biases.

Let us dream of a world state and someday this might be a posibility. Unity of India and Pakistan is a good thought, as a step towards world unification. But this can happen when we all become rational-humanists.

Good luck to you. I am with you

Sudheer Birodkar

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Yousaf Saeed Sahib,

I am little surprised, when I wrote on this topic. As I remember I replied to a person based in Washinton and he was a student and asked for India Pakistan trade. However I will give my point of view in short. As you are a muslim, I welcome you and share my ideas with you. I will go in history little bit. You know most of the muslim leaders were in Congress and they were of the openion that the hindus and muslim should fight togather for their independence and even Quid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah was in congress, but he left India after some time, due to the dual behaviour of the hindus. Dr Iqbal ask him to come back from England to guide the muslims in Muslim league. The turning point in the thinking of muslim masses was the 1937 elections and the effect of cogress lead government which follow the path of RSS(which is again in government in India now in the form of BJP. Those ten years were very critical and finally India was devided on relegion basis and you know the cause very well. Some people say that Pakistan was created due to the English people, might be one of the reason, but major reason was the behaviour of Hindu leaders. As we were the "shuders in thier eyes". Abual Kalam Azad made a mistake when he offered the Presidency of congress to Nehru and and he disclosed this in his book pages which were not made public due to his advice.

I donot know what is your point of view about Nehru, but I am of the openion that he also contributed for the division and all the controversial problems like Kashmir are created by him and you know his relations with the wife of Lord Mounbetton. They denied all the share of pakistan and even gave 4 muslim majority districts to India to creat a pemanant wound of kashmir which is still bleeding even after 50 years. Now the total scenario is changed, India become a Atomic power and you have seen their behaviour and when Pakistan did the same their behviour is changed and we are happy that India made the mistake and we took the fruit and masha allh we are also a atomic power. If you remember 1971 incidenc(Bangladesh), although we the weat pakistani's made the mistake but it was all due to Indian interference and I will recall Mrs Indra's words after fall of Dahka, " She stated that we took the 1000 years revenge from muslims". So brohter how we (Pakistani's) can think about unification. You the muslims in India have more experiance of living with hindus and you can better understand that. The true situation in Pakistan is that the people are in the grip of big landlords and privelaged class, which was serving the English people as agents and their loyals and they took over after the death of Quid-e-Azam. But you know the independence is million times better than slavery and we can not even think to unite. Regarding trade, people say that it should be free, last year Nawaz Sharif started that under the pressure of American's but it was a total loss for Pakistan and even the behaviour of the Indian government was not good and even it is worst now. You know the people who (BJP or RSS) can murder even Ghandhi, how come they can spaire the muslims.

It is long story but I can only say that God bless you brothr Muslims in India and keep you in good condition. The only problem is that you guys are scattered, othr wise we might have done some thing? Wait and see what happens in the long run. We will insha allah join you as "fataeh but not slaves". Thanks for asking comments and appologise if I have written some thing which would have heart you. Regards and Wasalam

M. Tahir Rashid

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Hi Brother!

You spoke exactly what I was thinking in your Punjabi Digest email. Thanks! It felt good to here that I wasn't alone in my thoughts of peace between our two nations.

Take Care,

Vikas

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Hello,

I am no longer interested in any discussion on that topic. Quite frankly I find it almost ridiculous to discuss, and the fact that it is almost always initiated from the Indian side to me means that they have failed to reconcile themselves to Pakistan, and its really about time they swallow the bitter pill.

I am really not interested in any further discussion.

Thanks

Farrukh Azfar GRASP LAB, 215-898-5916 (W) 215-732-0888 (H)

"shams-al haq-e-azadeh, tabreez-o-mey-e- sadeh ta hashr-e-man oftadeh, ahisteh keh sarmastam"

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Hi, thanks for your offer. I did visit your site.

Like twins separated at birth, India and Pakistan feel and know each other's pain (ok, so I've seen too many Hindi films). The specter of conflict between the two countries benefits only the politicians of both countries - who are able to hide their awful performance through raising the conflicts intermittently ; and of course, it benefits the rest of the world. Consider this:

- the lack of a India-Pakistan conflict would force China's hand on Xinjiang (where thousands of Muslims are being murdered) and Tibet (which has been illegally occupied). The two countries would be able to exert joint pressure on China and ensure that no other peoples in the region are affected by the southward push of the communists.

- the continuation of a India-Pakistan conflict keeps Central Asia under the influence of the Russians and the Iranians, giving the people of those countries no viable economic avenue to develop themselves.

- Arms merchants around the world would suffer substantial losses in business. More importantly, the so-called purchase experts in both countries would lose tons of money in illegal commissions.

- Lastly, the conflict keeps the Americans in Asia, and keeps them busy. I was personally aghast to read about US war games that envisaged a landing by the US on the Indo-Pak border and "punitive" measures against the main cities of both countries. I don't care much for bombings, Pakistani, Chinese or American.

Now lets examine some of the tangible benefits of co-operation, if not unity. A few are given as follows:

- Pakistan spends 60% of its annual budget on debt servicing and defence. A bulk of the debt is to do with defence purchases of the past. Likewise, India spends around 15% of its budget on defence. Both countries have better uses for the money - development expenditure and the like.

- lasting peace between the two countries can and will result in a change of government systems. Pakistan has benefited from a stronger democracy due to the (albeit fragile) peace between the countries. Now, the time has come to radically reform the democracies, and push out a bulk of the rent-seekers who occupy the corridors of power. This is what the people want, but cannot be achieved unless there is peace.

- co-operation between the two countries will help solve many of the so-called intractable problems that divide them. Agreements on Kashmir and other trouble spots will come about should peace last for a while. In addition, the countries will be able to help other regional conflicts, some of which have been prolonged due to shifting theatres of conflict. A prime example is the Tamil conflict in Sri Lanka. Similarly, issues such as Tibet and Xinjiang will receive due attention.

- Co-operation between the two countries will result in substantial successes in the war against drugs, which is fast becoming one of the largest "exports" from the region. This we can all do without.

The question before the new generation of Indians and Pakistanis is simple

- how intelligent and mature are we going to be? Are we really the descendants of that famed India that Europeans were hastily beating a path to in the 14th century? Are we really the people of the country that was the second largest and second most wealthy in the world as late as 1700?

What are we going to bequeath to our children - radiation or a radiant future?

I am, like many in my generation, of the firm view that India's priority has to be economic not military. We have to give our people the basics first. At the same time, I cannot tolerate attacks on my people or the prospect of any of them being killed in conflicts. It is my belief that the current generation of Pakistanis have similar goals and understanding. In other words, we are both in a mutual defence pose already. Lets not be prisoners of the past - instead, lets do something meaningful and mutually beneficial.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Regards

Raja

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From: Kashif Noorani (Pakistan)
Time: 1998-06-28 23:50:10

I read this page with a lot of interest,. The ideas expressed are Utopian for sure and are, as the author admits, written from an Indian point of view. I find it quite strange to hear Indians talking about unification. Have you ever wondered why the partition happened at all? Why would a 100 million people choose to sever their ties with a country that was their homeland if merely to unite with them after 50 years? Have those problems that caused them to take the step of creating a new nation been solved? Until and unless you can answer these questions, it is futile to even discuss the question of unification.

When Pakistanis look at events like Babri-Masjid, the Hindu Muslim riots in which adverently or inadverently, the loss of life and property is mostly borne by the minority i.e. the Muslims, they thank their parents for having the foresight and the will to create the nation of Pakistan. How can an Indian assure me that my people will be treated with as much respect for their religion and culture as we accord ourselves in our nation? Why should we give up our freedom and trust the Hindu majority of India when throughout our history we have seen nothing but war, aggression and bigotry from them? The Indian mentality that Pakistan belongs to India is the cause of a lot of the problems that we see. Until and unless India accepts that Pakistan is a free, independent nation and NOT East or West Germany which is just waiting to be united with its big brother in India, until and unless we are given the respect we deserve as a nation, how can we even talk of unification since then its not really unification but merely subordination to the Hindu majority?

I am a student USA and I am actively involved with Indian and Pakistani activities. My best friends are Indians from Punjab and I want to assure you that though my views are strongly worded (reflecting my feelings), I do not bear any animosity towards Indians. It is true that we have a lot in common. However, I do sense, even from my Indian friends, who have been raised and educated with this mentality, that Pakistan is somehow or the other part of India. I wish to clear this viewpoint to Indians so that if they do engage or are engaged in a frank discussion with a Pakistani about any issue, they will realize what is the root of our distrust.

Thanks

Kashif


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